come on lucky number 12!

Wow, it is amazeing how much rancor this one has put out. As a nobody, I'd like to weigh in. I climb everything, but prefer to place my own gear. What really gets me going though is a beautiful line, no matter the protection. The beauty of most bolt protected climbing is that it takes place on rock that is unprotectable by other means! That makes it about style, as Bob has said. I do agree with Healyje that trad ROUTES need to be left as is, with the idea that anchors and fixed gear be replaced with something reasonable as necessary. I also hope that the American climbing style continues to be that features that are protectable are not bolted. I've climbed in France, and while bolted cracks were fun, I hope they stay there. I know some of that has creeped in here, but most places I have climbed have offered trad and sport routes living side by side. And you know what? It's okay.
Jon

It may be interesting to see what happens
with the recent stratospheric gas price hikes
(with no end in sight) and the inevitable meltdown
of the economy looming ahead. Climbing could well
become a rather "elite" sport indeed.

I think already there IS an effect in all
phases of "adventure" type sports that involve
any length of required auto travel.

I know it's keeping riff-raff like me out of the Splatt
or ANYTHING more than about 30 miles from home lately.
See you at the soup kitchen, eh ?

This may be a good time to go into the bicycle biz however :)

Sport climbing started out when high end climbing wanted to focus on difficulty, and not placement of gear. The numbers rose, but sport climbing for the masses came years later. Presently, lots of people like to sport climb, and many climbers have sport climbs and sport climbing areas within driving distance of their homes. Many, many climbers want to clip bolts, have sport climbs they can do relatively safely, and sport climbs which are at their ability level;...not just 5.11 and above. If you have been climbing for 10, 20, 30 years or longer, you have seen many changes in gear, abilities, styles, attitudes, and access to our crags. If you have witnessed them from your arm chair, good for you;....if you are well read, you will probably understand how these changes have come about. If you have embraced climbing for awhile (all or most types of climbing), you also probably understand how these changes have come about. If you have not embraced all or most types of climbing, and the changes in gear, abilities, styles, attitudes, and access for awhile;...then it is difficult to understand how these changes have come about. What has NOT changed is the fun side of climbing, commraderie, and the challenge, wonderment and beauty of climbing rocks, rock faces, and mountains. The fun, commraderie, challenge , wonderment, and beauty is what keeps us motivated, excited, and coming back for more. All the doomsdayers and whiners who say "sport climbing" has/is going to ruin the sport;....well ;...it hasn't yet. Within our lifetimes, and probably many more life-times to come, there will still be lots of wild and wooly adventures to be had, in some very wild and wooly places.....far far from our desks and cubicles at work...... Pick your style, gear, route , and location, and go climb a rock;....and let others do the sames. There is room for all sorts of personalities, styles, kooks, ratings, and adventures....always keeping in mind that we are all different and look at our "sport" through different eyes. Saying that climbing HAS to be this or that, or that one type is better than another or one type is WRONG......it's like saying one type of music is better than another, ...or one type of music is wrong........it's all a matter of tastes;....and there are lots of people with different tastes to climbing;.....who's to say what is really right or wrong?.....only the individual reflecting on their individual tastes, goals, passions, and desires. Embrace your passions, goals, and desires, and let others do theirs. Whining about sport climbing is like whining about Rap music;....it's here, it's not going away anytime soon, and if you don't like it ....don't listen to it........

Bob,

Please stop egging this guy on. He is spewing nothing but vacuous nonsense, and I would bet my left t------e that he is motivated by the need to feel important. Giving him that attention is only fueling his fire.

This stuff has nothing to do with the history of climbing, which, per se, is a pretty interesting topic.

This post seems like it ignores Guideline #1...oh well we are gunning for 12 pages right?

Where do you think all that trad hardware comes from? ROCK! They are probably blasting away a great trad cliff in China right now to make your adventures even possible. Have some perspective. I'm not a fan of bolted cracks, chipping routes, and hanging quickdraws, but it is such a drop in the bucket compared to the manufacturer of a computer or a car.

Do you walk to the cliff, grow your own food, and knit your own clothes? No. Then realize the car and road (not to mention the HUGE train shipping all your stuff) marring the beautiful gorge I believe Beacon is in are much worse than a few bolts protecting otherwise unclimbable faces. If you are so pent up about a few specs of metal for anything other than your ego...i.e. environmental issues - go pick something that will actually make a difference in the world.

Oh sorry I forgot it is the masses and those who want "risk-free entertainment" who need those bolts. You would be climbing 5.14 runout to the point of death. Sorry some people enjoy lead climbing hard face routes with bolts. Do you really think they think it is some God given right? They just love the movement of climbing and want to not get hurt or injured doing it. What the hell is wrong with that? You can still climb your choss piles solo without rope and chalk all day long. No one is stopping you. Why don't you go to Rifle and try to onsight all the climbs there, solo without bolts? Hell you wouldn't make it past the 5.10's. GET OVER IT!

You think there aren't access and overcrowding at trad venues like Eldo, Gunks, Yosemite? And it isn't because there are a few bolts there now. There are just a lot of people in the world. You should be handing out condoms not spraying about sport climbing. It is nice to keep things natural for our own minds to believe in wilderness and freedom, but the rock doesn't care. It wasn't here 1 million years ago and it won't be in another million.

At least pick a legit argument...as in lets stop bolting cracks - that most of us could jump on board with. Just to say "sport climbing" is lame because it introduced a lot of people to the sport and you need bolts on face climbs is just pointless. Where are you going to go with that? Nowhere. People are only responding because you have such a jacked up opinion. Your opinions go back in time about 20-30 years. Those "ideals" already died there. R.I.P. Most everyone on this site is out having fun, take your old man bitterness back to the lair with you.

And what right do you have to say someone shouldn't have "risk-free entertainment" (as you call it)? Your entire argument would get an 'F' in debate class...it is just an opinion. A super elitist, tired, pathetic, egocentric, and totally ridiculous opinion. Sure you are entitled to it, but it probably isn't getting you very far. Climbing has evolved...people love face climbing...people love bolted anchors...people love climbing safe. It is too bad you don't because you are missing out. There is NOTHING wrong with climbing "risk-free" (again I don't believe sport climbing is risk free, but since you've said it 1000 times I'll use your words). Nothing. There is room for daredevils and chicken shit kids like myself who want to climb and return to their families at the end of the day. You can climb solo right past any bolt you want. There is room in the world for us all. By the way all 6 billion won't be climbing...most of them are too busy tying to find some damn food.

Also you DO impact how I climb...you and every hardcore trad climber out there. Physically you could climb past every bolt on earth without clipping it...but you can't mentally. For some reason it isn't the same for you guys/gals. Which means at places like Eldo, which is the best climbing close to Boulder IMHO, I don't push myself or climb half the routes. Too dangerous. Impossible or too difficult to setup many routes TR. Who really likes to TR anyways? Trad climbing "ethics" have a huge impact on a lot of climbers.


wait now we are onto the "body count" behind rap music? wow, now I've heard enough.

What happened to you, Joe? Did someone bolt your favorite trad route? Is that why you are so resentful of sport climbing?

Get over it. You can cry from now until the end of civilization, and no one cares. Sport climbing is fun, and most of the top rad trad climbers on the planet are so because they do a shit-load of sport climbing.

You poke fun at women with IQs of 80, yet your reasoning skills don't even match that. Give it a rest, or feel free to vent until you get it all off of your chest. I guess that's what these forums are for, anyway.

Rant on, bro.

If we do hit 12 pages you should all feel free to take your shirts off. Being ugly, old, lame, underendowed, and bitter I'll keep mine on of course, but it's all good and studly I suppose. Gotta go hit the choss, later...

I've never placed a bolt and don't plan on any in the near future. If I did anything in Eldo it would be with full approval of the committee. I sometimes lament the lack of protection in Eldo, but there are plenty who love it. I still have a full set of RP's and tiny cams. I'm all for natural pro, unless you can't reasonably safely lead without it. Not grid bolting, bolts every 3 feet, crack bolting etc...

I accept that is the way it is in Eldo, for now, and climb on. I just go about my business, pick the climbs I want to do, and have fun. I don't rant on and on about how the masses of "trad" climbers are ruining climbing and my enjoyment of it. I appreciate the history of ALL climbers who have taken the sport to the point where I can enjoy it. Especially without risking my life for it. Sorry if that disappoints you.

I was merely pointing out that the trad ethic does indeed effect my practice of the sport as you so vehemently claim only sport climbing does. I also don't believe anyone owns the rock...neither FA, trad climbers, or sport climbers. This is a much stated, but IMHO highly erroneous view of the world. And in the US most cliffs are public land - which means we have the collective responsibility to decide what to do with them. No one has the RIGHT to bolt or not bolt Eldo. It isn't an "inherent" trad resource. It is just a piece of rock that a majority has decided will have less bolts.

Can you point out what is wrong with "the degree to which many people's climbing is dependent on someone having done a hardware installation to enable it." There is a whole lot that went on to enable you to climb with sticky rubber, cams, stoppers, ropes, etc...

And what is wrong with climbing "risk-free?"

And illustrate what are the costs of sport climbing? Especially those which differ from so called trad climbing. I'm not saying there are none, but you haven't exactly outlined what sport climbing has done so differently than trad climbing. You think the constant stream of trad climbers into Rocky Mountain National Park doesn't effect the ecosystem up there?

And what is wrong with the sport climbing demographic?

A few comments here that I feel are wrong. Or at least applied incorrectly.

"most of the top rad trad climbers on the planet are so because they do a shit-load of sport climbing."

I've spent quite a bit of time sport climbing this year. In fact, I've never sport climbed harder. This has allowed me to climb gear protected face routes better and has caused stagnation and in some cases lowered what I can climb on cracks. Too much face climbing screws with your ability to climb cracks and vice versa. Not an ethics or style idea, more of a training principle, specificity.

To say that you could spend a year in rifle then go onsight Trip Master Monkey or Heaven is a rather ludicrous idea. There are super strong sport climbers climbing trad out there, my guess is that they are/have paid their dues in the cracks.

Paul, why are you slagging on Eldo? It's not a scary place. I understand your argument but it's applied incorrectly when speaking of eldo. 9 times out of 10 if it's hard there is either a bolt or a pin if there isn't a good gear placement. If anything, you could make the argument that gritstone climbers are taking away from a safe and fun experience for other englanders by headpointing instead of bolting. Eldo just doesn't fit that mold, it had great gear with safe falls if it's runout.

More points that got my attention.

"And what is wrong with climbing "risk-free?"

Am I incorrect in believing that some routes stand as a testament to whoever put them up? Furthermore, aren't some areas a testament to an entire generation or two of people doing things a certain way because it felt right. Are these traditions to be pissed on because they don't fit your ideal?

Also, unless you are actively seeking out risky routes, safe trad climbs are the rule, not the exception. In plenty of cases safer than a sport climb.

Also, I can't see this whole "movement vs gear" argument. I fail on trad routes and sport routes for the same reason. It's the movement. The route is too hard. It's not a gear issue. Why does this keep coming up? I fall on routes because the moves bested me, and without a doubt the coolest things I've done in a kinesthetic point of view have been protected with "trad gear".

I'm not adding to this argument and I'm not even saying where my line in the sand is. I'm just saying there's a lot of nonsense being talked here (and I fully realize that my nonsense will lead to me being called on my nonsense then more nonsense will be talked to concisely disprove me nonsense. Ken will call me biased and Bob will either threaten to punch me or hug me, but will almost certainly throw down an offer to climb. At any rate, I hope this helps with the 12 page goal).

WAFFLES!!!!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nHHfq9HHJXg

This discussion is so 1980's.

Just did a new route in Boulder Canyon, Garden Party Wall above Sherwood Forest.

Can't Please Everyone...5.11... five bolts to a two bolt anchor. Really good route.

Joe..what is my hole count up to now...10k seems low to me?

Shawn,

Did you get my Email?

Yes, Ken. Please excuse slow answer. I need to talk to some folks to nail down the answers. I'll be in touch in the next day or two.